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All posts by KalvinEllis
<div class="quote"><i>The Mind Player wrote: Technically, the Show's ratings are still high, despite the amount of people saying</i></div>
<p>What do ratings have to do with anything? A TV show is not immune to criticism just because it gets decent enough ratings.
</p>
<p>What do ratings have to do with anything? A TV show is not immune to criticism just because it gets decent enough ratings.
</p>
(Edited by KalvinEllis)
<div class="quote"><i>Wildesheer9876 wrote: Can't wait to see what IGN gave it. They gave a 8.5 episode of Supernatural from tonight a 6.5 so I can't wait to see them give Arrow a great score like they always do. I want to quit this show, but it ties in with The Flash and Legends. Plus Constantine. I would hate to stop watching and him making a random appearance or something.</i></div>
<p>They gave it a 3.8. LOL I'm genuinely surprised given they usually seem to enjoy the show. Oh well.
</p>
<p>They gave it a 3.8. LOL I'm genuinely surprised given they usually seem to enjoy the show. Oh well.
</p>
(Edited by KalvinEllis)
I can't take seriously anybody who calls people with different opinion "haters".
(Edited by KalvinEllis)
<div class="quote"><i>Lautarolynn123 wrote:
Marc says this is a Green Arrow show but Arsenal was written off (actor's desition but they didn't really try to make him stay), Black Canary died, now Speedy left. Also, Quentin left with Donna and Diggle went back to the military, leaving... guess who? OLICITY. The fact that Geoff Johns still supports this (or pretends to, at least) makes me sick.</i></div>
<p>
Yeah, I think "pretends" is the proper word. I doubt Geoff Johns has much of a say in what happens on the show anyway. If he did, for example we would actually see Hal Jordan on the show, instead of just having easter eggs towards him that never go anywhere. Geoff has written a few eps of Arrow and that was it, he was much more heavily involved with The Flash. I'm saying "was" because now he deals with the movie slate. I think Berlanti is the one who should be accused of supporting the nonsense coming from Guggenheim and Mericle. I don't even have a desire to watch the show anymore, it's beyond subpar. Shame. </p>
Marc says this is a Green Arrow show but Arsenal was written off (actor's desition but they didn't really try to make him stay), Black Canary died, now Speedy left. Also, Quentin left with Donna and Diggle went back to the military, leaving... guess who? OLICITY. The fact that Geoff Johns still supports this (or pretends to, at least) makes me sick.</i></div>
<p>
Yeah, I think "pretends" is the proper word. I doubt Geoff Johns has much of a say in what happens on the show anyway. If he did, for example we would actually see Hal Jordan on the show, instead of just having easter eggs towards him that never go anywhere. Geoff has written a few eps of Arrow and that was it, he was much more heavily involved with The Flash. I'm saying "was" because now he deals with the movie slate. I think Berlanti is the one who should be accused of supporting the nonsense coming from Guggenheim and Mericle. I don't even have a desire to watch the show anymore, it's beyond subpar. Shame. </p>
(Edited by KalvinEllis)
<p>I'm missing something, if the "Jay" that Zoom killed was his time remnant, then who was the Jay that chased him around the city in the E2 flashbacks when the singularity first appeared? Or was that just a made-up story Zolomon told the team to earn their trust and we simply saw it depicted on screen.
</p>
(Edited by KalvinEllis)
<div class="quote"><i>8th Hero of Olympus wrote:
Am I really the only one here who doesn't really care much about Laurel's death?</i></div>
<p>
I'm sure you're not. She was a divisive character to say the least. But at the end of the day, it's The Black Canary and a character of such importance deserved better than what she got. They've always struggled with the character and by doing this they basically admitted they never knew what to do with her on a long-term basis. Guggenheim said it was a creative choice that they made to show this is their own interpretation without feeling the need to stick to the comics where Oliver and Dinah are an "iconic" couple. The way I see it, he is basically implying that in this version, if Dinah Laurel Lance didn't have a love affair with Oliver Queen anymore, then she had nothing else to offer. As if this is the only thing that could've ensured her presence on the show. </p><p>So yeah, I think fans do have a reason to be pissed about it. These showrunners didn't seem to care about the character unless she served some purpose for them. That was painfully obvious this season, they gave her some emphasis exactly two times: 1) When they brought her sister back; 2) When they killed her. A character of this magnitude was blatantly disrespected the entire time and then was just killed off. I wouldn't stop watching the show because of that, I'm not so overdramatic, but these guys can kiss my ass. </p>
Am I really the only one here who doesn't really care much about Laurel's death?</i></div>
<p>
I'm sure you're not. She was a divisive character to say the least. But at the end of the day, it's The Black Canary and a character of such importance deserved better than what she got. They've always struggled with the character and by doing this they basically admitted they never knew what to do with her on a long-term basis. Guggenheim said it was a creative choice that they made to show this is their own interpretation without feeling the need to stick to the comics where Oliver and Dinah are an "iconic" couple. The way I see it, he is basically implying that in this version, if Dinah Laurel Lance didn't have a love affair with Oliver Queen anymore, then she had nothing else to offer. As if this is the only thing that could've ensured her presence on the show. </p><p>So yeah, I think fans do have a reason to be pissed about it. These showrunners didn't seem to care about the character unless she served some purpose for them. That was painfully obvious this season, they gave her some emphasis exactly two times: 1) When they brought her sister back; 2) When they killed her. A character of this magnitude was blatantly disrespected the entire time and then was just killed off. I wouldn't stop watching the show because of that, I'm not so overdramatic, but these guys can kiss my ass. </p>
(Edited by KalvinEllis)
<p>I still maintain we shouldn't bring in Supergirl here, other than probably a single page for Kara. Can't we put it to a vote or something? lol
</p>
(Edited by KalvinEllis)
<div class="quote"><i>Daniel.safe.35 wrote: Marc Gugginheim flat out said whoever is dead IS dead and they will stay dead</i></div>
<p>Guggenheim's job is to sell the show. They are not killing a character of that importance. When they kill Lois Lane, Mary Jane or Selina Kyle, they can kill Black Canary too. Pigs will fly before that happens.
</p>
<p>Guggenheim's job is to sell the show. They are not killing a character of that importance. When they kill Lois Lane, Mary Jane or Selina Kyle, they can kill Black Canary too. Pigs will fly before that happens.
</p>
(Edited by KalvinEllis)
<div class="quote"><i>Daniel.safe.35 wrote:
I'm thinking all signs now point towards Laurel. I understand it could be Quentin, but we see him in set photos with both his full head of hair (flashback) and bald (present). We also see Alex Kingston on set, she could be in the flashback which is clearly the Oliver/Robert/Sara funeral, but she could also be in both. Plus, there is the title of the episode which was almost fully crossed out. Almost. We got an "r", and the only reason they'd cross it out is if it was a spoiler, so what if it's something like "Laurel's demise" or "Canary Cry"?</i></div>
<p>There's no way in hell they would kill the Black Canary. She is one of DC's most prominent female characters. That's like Gotham killing off Selina Kyle or Flash killing Iris. I also don't think this is a situation where the producers are being pushed by DC to write off someone, like they were with the Suicide Squad or Waller. I'm thinking if it indeed is Laurel's funeral, it might be some kind of ruse to make Darhk think he killed her and use the element of surpise against him later on. Won't be the first time Oliver has lied to the others so he could use it against his enemy.
</p>
I'm thinking all signs now point towards Laurel. I understand it could be Quentin, but we see him in set photos with both his full head of hair (flashback) and bald (present). We also see Alex Kingston on set, she could be in the flashback which is clearly the Oliver/Robert/Sara funeral, but she could also be in both. Plus, there is the title of the episode which was almost fully crossed out. Almost. We got an "r", and the only reason they'd cross it out is if it was a spoiler, so what if it's something like "Laurel's demise" or "Canary Cry"?</i></div>
<p>There's no way in hell they would kill the Black Canary. She is one of DC's most prominent female characters. That's like Gotham killing off Selina Kyle or Flash killing Iris. I also don't think this is a situation where the producers are being pushed by DC to write off someone, like they were with the Suicide Squad or Waller. I'm thinking if it indeed is Laurel's funeral, it might be some kind of ruse to make Darhk think he killed her and use the element of surpise against him later on. Won't be the first time Oliver has lied to the others so he could use it against his enemy.
</p>
(Edited by KalvinEllis)
He is about 60.
(Edited by KalvinEllis)
<div class="quote"><i>MadHatterJervisTetch wrote:
<div class="quote">KalvinEllis wrote:
Yes you are, how long have you being doing this since the Supergirl merge discussion started?</i></div>
Doing what? Saying different things on different topics to different people? <p>
</p> <div class="quote"><i>KalvinEllis wrote:
You can express disagreements without making it seem as if you're harassing people for having opinions that differ from yours.</i></div>
<p>Right and i thought i did exactly that here with you right now. </p><p>
</p> <div class="quote"><i>KalvinEllis wrote:
Being logical doesn't mean treating others like idiots because their speculations might "not make sense to you".</i></div>
About "speculations" you have right, about "Facts" you are wrong! you, and maybe others too, simply understand not exactly that i wanted to say and i tryed to explain That AGAIN, thats all <p>
</p> <div class="quote"><i>KalvinEllis wrote:
From telling people they are wrong because "the comics says differently"</i></div>
jesus i am literally one of the first that said "things on TV Shows are mostly different as they are in the Comics" Bro. I explain sometimes to you guys something that are exist in the comics, like the russian Firestorm and that maybe influenced the TV Show in some way, like the Origin Part from Cobalt Blue. But I didn't mean "this has to be exactly as it was in the comics" and i NEVER mention that in that way! -_- <p>
</p> <div class="quote"><i>KalvinEllis wrote:
to arguing about timelines vs parallel universes because what others say about it "doesn't compute".</i></div>
<p>have you noticed that tread? </p><p>http://arrow.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:31106 </p><p>why it worked there? </p><p>
</p> <div class="quote"><i>KalvinEllis wrote:
If that's not your style, you have a strange way of showing it,</i></div>
and you have a strange way to arguing with me. <p>
</p> <div class="quote"><i>KalvinEllis wrote:
and I guess I'm not the only one who shares that sentiment here.</i></div>
look we two have a nice talk about the man in the iron mask and you pulled out of nowthere the "don't say that stupid things are stupid!" Thing to me. Why? I didn't even say "this Iron Mask Guy MUST BE the Real Jay Garrick! And all the other speculations are bullsh#t!" like it sounds from your statements here. I simply say "i believe this Dude is the real Jay" and YOU came up with" this is totally not possible" so all the things you just reproach to me, are made from YOU in this case! <p>
</p> <div class="quote"><i>KalvinEllis wrote:
All I'm saying is just take it down a notch.
</i></div>
<p>maybe we both should take it down a notch, ok? </p> </div> <p>
I didn't say "all" of your comments were like that. But they are like that often enough and I wouldn't have brought this up if they weren't. If you can't see it for yourself then it's useless for me to bring it up again. This is totally off topic so I'm dropping it. Just thought I should give you a heads up so you don't get another warn. </p>
<div class="quote">KalvinEllis wrote:
Yes you are, how long have you being doing this since the Supergirl merge discussion started?</i></div>
Doing what? Saying different things on different topics to different people? <p>
</p> <div class="quote"><i>KalvinEllis wrote:
You can express disagreements without making it seem as if you're harassing people for having opinions that differ from yours.</i></div>
<p>Right and i thought i did exactly that here with you right now. </p><p>
</p> <div class="quote"><i>KalvinEllis wrote:
Being logical doesn't mean treating others like idiots because their speculations might "not make sense to you".</i></div>
About "speculations" you have right, about "Facts" you are wrong! you, and maybe others too, simply understand not exactly that i wanted to say and i tryed to explain That AGAIN, thats all <p>
</p> <div class="quote"><i>KalvinEllis wrote:
From telling people they are wrong because "the comics says differently"</i></div>
jesus i am literally one of the first that said "things on TV Shows are mostly different as they are in the Comics" Bro. I explain sometimes to you guys something that are exist in the comics, like the russian Firestorm and that maybe influenced the TV Show in some way, like the Origin Part from Cobalt Blue. But I didn't mean "this has to be exactly as it was in the comics" and i NEVER mention that in that way! -_- <p>
</p> <div class="quote"><i>KalvinEllis wrote:
to arguing about timelines vs parallel universes because what others say about it "doesn't compute".</i></div>
<p>have you noticed that tread? </p><p>http://arrow.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:31106 </p><p>why it worked there? </p><p>
</p> <div class="quote"><i>KalvinEllis wrote:
If that's not your style, you have a strange way of showing it,</i></div>
and you have a strange way to arguing with me. <p>
</p> <div class="quote"><i>KalvinEllis wrote:
and I guess I'm not the only one who shares that sentiment here.</i></div>
look we two have a nice talk about the man in the iron mask and you pulled out of nowthere the "don't say that stupid things are stupid!" Thing to me. Why? I didn't even say "this Iron Mask Guy MUST BE the Real Jay Garrick! And all the other speculations are bullsh#t!" like it sounds from your statements here. I simply say "i believe this Dude is the real Jay" and YOU came up with" this is totally not possible" so all the things you just reproach to me, are made from YOU in this case! <p>
</p> <div class="quote"><i>KalvinEllis wrote:
All I'm saying is just take it down a notch.
</i></div>
<p>maybe we both should take it down a notch, ok? </p> </div> <p>
I didn't say "all" of your comments were like that. But they are like that often enough and I wouldn't have brought this up if they weren't. If you can't see it for yourself then it's useless for me to bring it up again. This is totally off topic so I'm dropping it. Just thought I should give you a heads up so you don't get another warn. </p>
(Edited by KalvinEllis)
<div class="quote"><i>MadHatterJervisTetch wrote:
<div class="quote">
</i></div>
wait a second, YOU said something that isn't true and then I say to you "i am sorry but this isn't True" i am the "Villain" of the Story now? seriously? <p>I have refute your arguments, deal with it! This has nothing to do with "try to degrade" anyone or "treat people like they are stupid", thats not my style. </p><p>This is more a "showing you new points of view" or "try to explain things to you, that you are maybe not know until now, or have disregarded". </p><p>After all you totally ignore the facts that i am mostly right with my statements here, so maybe you should not go to "disagree" with me for <i>disagreeing with me</i> like it sounds to me right now. </p> </div> <p>Yes you are, how long have you being doing this since the Supergirl merge discussion started? You can express disagreements without making it seem as if you're harassing people for having opinions that differ from yours. Being logical doesn't mean treating others like idiots because their speculations might "not make sense to you". From telling people they are wrong because "the comics says differently" to arguing about timelines vs parallel universes because what others say about it "doesn't compute". If that's not your style, you have a strange way of showing it, and I guess I'm not the only one who shares that sentiment here. All I'm saying is just take it down a notch.
</p>
<div class="quote">
</i></div>
wait a second, YOU said something that isn't true and then I say to you "i am sorry but this isn't True" i am the "Villain" of the Story now? seriously? <p>I have refute your arguments, deal with it! This has nothing to do with "try to degrade" anyone or "treat people like they are stupid", thats not my style. </p><p>This is more a "showing you new points of view" or "try to explain things to you, that you are maybe not know until now, or have disregarded". </p><p>After all you totally ignore the facts that i am mostly right with my statements here, so maybe you should not go to "disagree" with me for <i>disagreeing with me</i> like it sounds to me right now. </p> </div> <p>Yes you are, how long have you being doing this since the Supergirl merge discussion started? You can express disagreements without making it seem as if you're harassing people for having opinions that differ from yours. Being logical doesn't mean treating others like idiots because their speculations might "not make sense to you". From telling people they are wrong because "the comics says differently" to arguing about timelines vs parallel universes because what others say about it "doesn't compute". If that's not your style, you have a strange way of showing it, and I guess I'm not the only one who shares that sentiment here. All I'm saying is just take it down a notch.
</p>
(Edited by KalvinEllis)
<div class="quote"><i>MadHatterJervisTetch wrote: firstly i am not "sarcastic" , i am logical.
<p>
</p> </i></div>
<p>Fine, so can you try to be "logical" without making it seem like you treat people like they are stupid here? Many times that you "logically" disagree with someone, seems like you try to degrade them in some way. You can express your disagreements without going on and on and on about how "wrong" their logic is.
</p>
</p> </i></div>
<p>Fine, so can you try to be "logical" without making it seem like you treat people like they are stupid here? Many times that you "logically" disagree with someone, seems like you try to degrade them in some way. You can express your disagreements without going on and on and on about how "wrong" their logic is.
</p>
(Edited by KalvinEllis)
<div class="quote"><i>MadHatterJervisTetch wrote:
<div class="quote">KalvinEllis wrote:
<div class="quote">MadHatterJervisTetch wrote: the writers are lazy, look at "Arrow" four Main Villains have the Goal to finaly destroy Star City for now.</i></div>
No argument about the writers being lazy but Arrow is different, Oliver's goal is "saving his city", that's the show's very slogan or at least it was before tumblr took it over. The Arrow threats are usually more personal to make Oliver suffer, that's why they always target his city. With Flash it's on a more global level and even travelling through time or crossing over dimensions. They are not going to pull the exact same thing they did last year when they have so many different options.
</div>
i agree with the Arrow Stuff but not with the Flash Stuff. <p>In Arrow the Villains have no personal vendetta against Green Arrow and his Team but Green Arrow prevents them to get her goal (with the ecxeption of Deathstroke, who has a personal vendetta against Oliver) </p><p>On The Flash the Villains HAVE a close personal vendetta with the scarlet speedster and go specifically after Barry and give a fu** on destroying Central City, world domination or things like that. </p><p>Also i have the feeling that the Main Villain of Season 3 will be a Evil Speedster wearing a Blue Version of Flashs Costume. ^^ </p> </div> <p>
Ra's al Ghul had a personal vendetta after Oliver tricked him that he would take his place. Malcolm was directly involved with the Queen family, of course he had a personal vendetta. Zoom has no personal vendetta against Barry, he just wants to take his speed and become unstoppable. Sounds a bit like world domination to me. The villain of S3 will most likely be Grodd, given what they said in interviews before and how they compared him to Ra's al Ghul in terms of slow build. </p>
<div class="quote">KalvinEllis wrote:
<div class="quote">MadHatterJervisTetch wrote: the writers are lazy, look at "Arrow" four Main Villains have the Goal to finaly destroy Star City for now.</i></div>
No argument about the writers being lazy but Arrow is different, Oliver's goal is "saving his city", that's the show's very slogan or at least it was before tumblr took it over. The Arrow threats are usually more personal to make Oliver suffer, that's why they always target his city. With Flash it's on a more global level and even travelling through time or crossing over dimensions. They are not going to pull the exact same thing they did last year when they have so many different options.
</div>
i agree with the Arrow Stuff but not with the Flash Stuff. <p>In Arrow the Villains have no personal vendetta against Green Arrow and his Team but Green Arrow prevents them to get her goal (with the ecxeption of Deathstroke, who has a personal vendetta against Oliver) </p><p>On The Flash the Villains HAVE a close personal vendetta with the scarlet speedster and go specifically after Barry and give a fu** on destroying Central City, world domination or things like that. </p><p>Also i have the feeling that the Main Villain of Season 3 will be a Evil Speedster wearing a Blue Version of Flashs Costume. ^^ </p> </div> <p>
Ra's al Ghul had a personal vendetta after Oliver tricked him that he would take his place. Malcolm was directly involved with the Queen family, of course he had a personal vendetta. Zoom has no personal vendetta against Barry, he just wants to take his speed and become unstoppable. Sounds a bit like world domination to me. The villain of S3 will most likely be Grodd, given what they said in interviews before and how they compared him to Ra's al Ghul in terms of slow build. </p>
(Edited by KalvinEllis)
<div class="quote"><i>MadHatterJervisTetch wrote: the writers are lazy, look at "Arrow" four Main Villains have the Goal to finaly destroy Star City for now.</i></div>
<p>No argument about the writers being lazy but Arrow is different, Oliver's goal is "saving his city", that's the show's very slogan or at least it was before tumblr took it over. The Arrow threats are usually more personal to make Oliver suffer, that's why they always target his city. With Flash it's on a more global level and even travelling through time or crossing over dimensions. They are not going to pull the exact same thing they did last year when they have so many different options.
</p>
<p>No argument about the writers being lazy but Arrow is different, Oliver's goal is "saving his city", that's the show's very slogan or at least it was before tumblr took it over. The Arrow threats are usually more personal to make Oliver suffer, that's why they always target his city. With Flash it's on a more global level and even travelling through time or crossing over dimensions. They are not going to pull the exact same thing they did last year when they have so many different options.
</p>
(Edited by KalvinEllis)
<div class="quote"><i>MadHatterJervisTetch wrote:
<div class="quote">KalvinEllis wrote:
.. and they are not going to repeat the same thing from last season where the bad guy was someone else's "twin"/doppleganger.</i></div>
Look at the actual plot/ Main Villain from The Flash Season 2:
</p>
<div class="quote">KalvinEllis wrote:
.. and they are not going to repeat the same thing from last season where the bad guy was someone else's "twin"/doppleganger.</i></div>
Look at the actual plot/ Main Villain from The Flash Season 2:
- a mysterious evil Speedster, that noone knoews his identity
- the Evil Speedster is wearing a Flash Costume with a different Color
- the Evil Speedster is way more powerfull as Barry
- The Evil Speedster comes from a different Time/Dimension as Barry Allen
- The Evil Speedsters goal is to make Barry faster so he can use Barrys Speed for his own evil plans
- the Identity reveal of the Evil Speedster is a real Shock to viewers and Barry
</p>
(Edited by KalvinEllis)
<div class="quote"><i>MadHatterJervisTetch wrote:
<div class="quote">KalvinEllis wrote:
Whoever it is, it can't be the real Jay. It's way too predictable.</i></div>
<p>Right now the most people go with "Jay Garrick is Zoom" or "Jay Garrick is the other Guy tooked by Zoom" or don't? </p><p>Also the "Dead Jay" isn't very "dead" because Synopsis for next Episode sounds like: </p><p><i>After the tragic events of the breach and Jay's abduction, things aren't looking good. Whilst Jay is stranded on Earth 2 in the hands of Zoom cells and torture, Barry decides that he and the team need to find a way to reopen the breach and not only save Jay, but the mysterious knocking man.</i> </p><p>so probably the most People will be think "Man in Iron Mask isn't the Real Jay" </p> </div> <p>I hadn't seen this description before. Okay, let's see what happens then.
</p>
<div class="quote">KalvinEllis wrote:
Whoever it is, it can't be the real Jay. It's way too predictable.</i></div>
<p>Right now the most people go with "Jay Garrick is Zoom" or "Jay Garrick is the other Guy tooked by Zoom" or don't? </p><p>Also the "Dead Jay" isn't very "dead" because Synopsis for next Episode sounds like: </p><p><i>After the tragic events of the breach and Jay's abduction, things aren't looking good. Whilst Jay is stranded on Earth 2 in the hands of Zoom cells and torture, Barry decides that he and the team need to find a way to reopen the breach and not only save Jay, but the mysterious knocking man.</i> </p><p>so probably the most People will be think "Man in Iron Mask isn't the Real Jay" </p> </div> <p>I hadn't seen this description before. Okay, let's see what happens then.
</p>
(Edited by KalvinEllis)
<p>I know about the Main in the Iron Mask plot, no need to send me links to it. It's too predictable and they are not going to repeat the same thing from last season where the bad guy was someone else's "twin"/doppleganger. That's why I assume the real Jay is going to look nothing like Zolomon.
</p>
(Edited by KalvinEllis)
<div class="quote"><i>LucasVerBeek wrote:
<div class="quote">KalvinEllis wrote:
The guy in the mask seems to be African-American, how can he be the real Jay? Kreisberg said in one of the interviews that the masked guy's identity is going to be an even bigger reveal, so how can it be if he turns out to be the guy everyone expects him to be? What if it's an Earth-2 Wally West who was the real Jay Garrick's sidekick Kid Flash or something like that. They can come up with a lot of things but I doubt they would pick the most obvious choice.</i></div>
I don't see it.
</div> <p>
Eh it was just a suggestion, I don't really believe it either, just saying it can't be the one everyone thinks it's going to be. </p>
<div class="quote">KalvinEllis wrote:
The guy in the mask seems to be African-American, how can he be the real Jay? Kreisberg said in one of the interviews that the masked guy's identity is going to be an even bigger reveal, so how can it be if he turns out to be the guy everyone expects him to be? What if it's an Earth-2 Wally West who was the real Jay Garrick's sidekick Kid Flash or something like that. They can come up with a lot of things but I doubt they would pick the most obvious choice.</i></div>
I don't see it.
</div> <p>
Eh it was just a suggestion, I don't really believe it either, just saying it can't be the one everyone thinks it's going to be. </p>
(Edited by KalvinEllis)
<p>Whoever it is, it can't be the real Jay. It's way too predictable.
</p>
(Edited by KalvinEllis)